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pa_fact at night? (Nov 17, 2005)

On my journey home tonight in the absolute freezing cold, the train passed the same old industrial yards, lit up in the otherwise black outdoors via their bright yellow incadescent bulbs and bright white flourescent floodlights. Things like that always look fairly pretty on an otherwise boring journey, and made me wonder if I'd actually got the lighting solution in pa_fact wrong.

I'm battling against two fronts here. The first is the part of me that likes to create maps that look cool and feel real. The other is the designer side of my head, telling me that perhaps gameplay would be more fun if the interior of the building were flooded with light, and the exterior lit very sparingly.

The aim of the interior being dark and the outside bright was such that the CTs would want to stay and hide inside, whilst the Terrorists tried to attack. The problem always was however that CTs would rush outside into the brightness and just gun down the Ts. They could also too easily see the silhouette of Terrorists trying to get through the windows.

Of course, the lighting was never that vibrant anyway, but never the less, that was the thinking....

However, make the interior bright and the exterior dark, and it becomes a very different story. The Terrorists will feel safe outside, but in doing so risk losing because they won't plant the bomb. The CTs however get the fear of being in such a bright place and such easy targets, but this is balanced out with the risk the Terrorists face by trying to get in. The CTs have no reason to rush outside (given the lighting at the only exits they'll have), and will need to rely on cover in a very different way.

Plus, of course, I get to play with lighting even more.

Or perhaps there will be no difference whatsoever. Still, worth a shot...

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user comments

Rusty Le Cyborg at 10:29 on Nov 18, 2005

Then of course you have the option of adding HDR to the map if it is bright outside.

People rushing outside from a dark room would be at a temporary disadvantage.

Cheers for now

Dave at 13:24 on Nov 18, 2005

Rusty: that works in both situations. It would make the CTs even less sure about going outside because it would be pitch black, and Ts would need to edge in slowly. HDR would make it much more even.

Rusty Le Cyborg at 13:31 on Nov 18, 2005

Maybe less so if the light source was inside, as I doubt it would be as bright as the sun. But I take your point. I like the idea of dark maps or at least having dark areas in them so that you might actually need to buy NV goggles. The problem in those maps however is they are only ever good against humans. Bots can see in the dark it seems :)

M at 19:45 on Nov 18, 2005

I think wot ever u do it will be a greatly programmedl evel

Cargo Cult at 22:15 on Nov 18, 2005

Make the whole map fullbright (and maybe just a few simple hollow cubes too) - problem solved!

...

I really like the new solution, actually - light == safe! You can see where the enemies are...

(For HDR, while it'll definitely be a gameplay-affecting device at some point in the future, it can't be relied upon yet because some people still have older hardware. Maybe a cull is in order? ;] )

Addicted to Morphine at 17:18 on Nov 20, 2005

Given that a well lit area feels safer, I think it would work well if the bombsite was well lit, and the outside was dark. Since I'm assuming you want to keep the gameplay very much a Terrorist assault, the brightness of the bombsite would hopefully keep the CT's inside. It would just be too dangerous to rush the T's since they will be so hard to see outside, while the CT's will be silhouetted by the light inside.

As an aside, I remember you mentioning that most gamers prefer bright lit (sunny) maps. This is probably true, but as an amatuer mapper I always prefer making dusk/night maps. The lighting is just so much more fun, and the contrast from Bright Inside / Dark Outside is more effective than Bright Outside / Dark Inside... at least in my opinion.

Perhaps you could release two builds of fact? To be played in quick succession? Or is it possible through entity work to change the lighting from round to round? So in a way you could have your cake and eat it too.

Dave at 17:30 on Nov 20, 2005

AtM: yeah, making dark outdoor maps is a lot of fun. I spent a few hours earlier today converting Fact to be outdoors, and that was great fun! Looks alright too...

...and of course, the genius of visgroups mean I can switch between day and night versions at will. A dual release is very tempting...

Crinity at 21:50 on Nov 21, 2005

Here's a question though - you've mentioned dark maps being problematic before because CS players tend to crank up the gamma anyway, defeating any lighting intentions on the part of the mapper.

It seems like maps that are designed with light-related gameplay in mind can only really work in a LAN environment where everyone has agreed to match their brightness levels.

Gamma cheating is a problem that map designers (let alone Punkbuster) can do nothing about, and dark maps just favor those who don't care about the designers intentions (which is frustrating, but goes with the territory I suppose).

What's your take on this - is Fact designed specifically with LAN games in mind, and how does what you learned working on csde_bridge influence your design for Fact when it comes to lighting?

Dave at 08:15 on Nov 22, 2005

Crinity: it's something that, as a designer, I can't really work around. Even with csde_bridge, where I was just down a hallway from the people I was playing against, and specifically told them to fix their gamma, they insisted on playing with it turned right up. I found it more fun to play with proper gamma, but in a serious game I would have found their advantage very annoying.

There isn't really a solution as far as I can see, bar making the outside pitch black, but obviously that's not an option.

Rusty Le Cyborg at 11:23 on Nov 22, 2005

Crinity? Is that THE as_bridge Crinity?

Crinity at 17:12 on Nov 24, 2005

Rusty, nope, not as_bridge. I'm responsible for de_torn (you can read Dave's accurate dismantling here: http://www.johnsto.co.uk/?t=common_sense). I'm currently working on a new map for CS:S to try and make amends.

Dave, I guess this will always be a problem for multiplayer maps; if players want to ignore the intent of the design, that's really just their loss, but it can also be annoying for those who leave themselves at a disadvantage by playing "fairly".

It also occurs to me that while it would be nice to try out HDR as a gameplay device, the effect is completely toggleable in the preferences - it's not even really a cheat per se, just a video option, but one that can affect those who use it detrimentally.

As a player, that doesn't stop me from using it myself though, and I like the challenge of adjusting to the light when playing DoD for instance.

Rusty Le Cyborg at 20:03 on Nov 24, 2005

Never mind that DaveJ! Name me one map that he's made that's any good... umm.... oops... :)

I quite like Torn it must be said, I used to play it a lot in CZ.

I only mentioned "as_bridge" because it was on the list of maps that were supposed to come with Gearbox's CZ, and you were named as the mapper!

Hit me up if you want to know more about what you are supposed to have done ;)

Back on topic... Whether using HDR or not it seems to me to still come down to thorough playtesting whilst in beta to iron out problems that can occur. A bit like Dust_PCG

Cheers for now

Rusty Le Post Script at 20:04 on Nov 24, 2005

Hmm.. it was supposed to have something after that!

Just kidding about PCG Dave!!

Crinity at 16:26 on Nov 26, 2005

Rusty - I see what happened. as_bridge is the name that was given to the map my brother (Matt Coombe) built for Gearbox. For some reason I'm listed as the creator on some sites.

Rusty Le Enlightened Cyborg at 12:01 on Nov 27, 2005

Ah.. thanks for that info Crinity. It explains the mix up.

Grrr.. I wish Valve would just release the Gearbox maps that ended up at Ritual/Turtle Rock as a sort of bonus for us CZ stalwarts :)

Ho hum....

Addicted to Morphine at 23:18 on Nov 27, 2005

Is there an accepted "default" brightness setting?